Leclerc Armour Discussion

[Hedgehog]

Dark Labour's wish is my command.

[dejawolf]

estimated front LOS thicknesses for leclerc T7

[Damian90]

I wonder about one thing about Leclerc.

The turret bustle autoloader can be reloaded from the inside right? My question is, the turret needs to be traversed to specific position, this position is only 12 o'clock? Or there are also other possible loading positions for turret?

[lavictoireestlavie]

estimated front LOS thicknesses for leclerc T7

Beautiful !

So what are these plate covers used for? :

[dejawolf]

I wonder about one thing about Leclerc.

The turret bustle autoloader can be reloaded from the inside right? My question is, the turret needs to be traversed to specific position, this position is only 12 o'clock? Or there are also other possible loading positions for turret?

AFAIK, there's a sliding door in front of the gunners spot that you slide open, and then the gunner pulls out the rounds from this revolver-like magazine. length of the round would prohibit it from being loaded from any other position than 12 o'clock.

[DarkLabor]

Dark Labour's wish is my command.

*Laughing out loud*

I was more expecting someone, who would ask a question about the Leclerc, to create such topic. Otherwise I would have created.

Thanks mate that's appreciated! :drink:

And not to waste time and post here is my answer to

So is the lower glacis of the Leclerc s1, s2 and s3 equipped with composite modules of a certain thickness?

Just a single plate for each face of the lower hull.

And what is this plate exactly?:

Those plates are addon armor to protect the ERA modules.

T10 had been produced without it. Then people started to think that it would be too easy to ignite the ERA with 12,5 and 14,5.

So with the T11 they placed addon armor above, on the side and behind (for those at the rear) the modules.

[Damian90]

AFAIK, there's a sliding door in front of the gunners spot that you slide open, and then the gunner pulls out the rounds from this revolver-like magazine. length of the round would prohibit it from being loaded from any other position than 12 o'clock.

Thanks.

Those plates are addon armor to protect the ERA modules.

What type of ERA it is? A typical widepsread "light" ERA optimized against HEAT only or "heavy" ERA optimized also against APFSDS? As I assume ERA is used also for other surfaces of vehicle?

[Hedgehog]

*Laughing out loud*

I was more expecting someone, who would ask a question about the Leclerc, to create such topic. Otherwise I would have created.

Thanks mate that's appreciated! :drink:

No Problem!

I have to say that gun mantlet is big ballistic hole....Relativly speaking.

I can see that being an Issue in SB.

(Read CR2 Driver's peri)

[DarkLabor]

estimated front LOS thicknesses for leclerc T7

Have you taken into account the water tank at the feet of the pilote for the CE values?

There is fuel as well on the other sponson next to the pilote and a little bit behind his left shoulder.

I'm kinda puzzle by the different KE values in front of the commander. Roughly the thickness of armor in front of him is quite homogenous. I understand for the CE because the storage box is cut to let the pilote in.

I wonder about one thing about Leclerc.

The turret bustle autoloader can be reloaded from the inside right? My question is, the turret needs to be traversed to specific position, this position is only 12 o'clock? Or there are also other possible loading positions for turret?

To reload from inside you got to turn the turret 11 to 12 o'clock.That the only position to have access to the drum.

If you're thinking anything about the commander, it's wrong because the rounds would have to make too much distance, this would take too much people on a single task.

[Homer]

I moved all these threads into here because the discussion is getting passionate at times, and should not be one of the first things to be seen by a new member.

[lavictoireestlavie]

"Then people started to think that it would be too easy to ignite the ERA with 12,5 and 14,5." So the plate that is there on the Leclerc s3 T10 is not even bullet proof against HMG fire?

And concerning the LOS diagram for the Leclerc, is the lower glacis and gunshield really that vulnerable? What is happening in the area where the Air Conditioning unit is ? Would a hit in that area compromise the integrity of the fighting compartment somehow ?

[Damian90]

To reload from inside you got to turn the turret 11 to 12 o'clock.That the only position to have access to the drum.

If you're thinking anything about the commander, it's wrong because the rounds would have to make too much distance, this would take too much people on a single task.

Aha got it.

Were there any studies performed about possible increase in turret bustle autoloader ammunition capacity?

[DarkLabor]

What type of ERA it is? A typical widepsread "light" ERA optimized against HEAT only or "heavy" ERA optimized also against APFSDS? As I assume ERA is used also for other surfaces of vehicle?

It should be the heavy one.

The reason of such claim is simple : the turret's mass is always balanced.

And with the SXXI the frontal armor has been increased.

[DarkLabor]

Aha got it.

Were there any studies performed about possible increase in turret bustle autoloader ammunition capacity?

Not that I eard of.

The problem still is that there is no way to make an autoloader (where ammo are set in a single belt) with a third line of ammunition.

[Damian90]

It should be the heavy one.

The reason of such claim is simple : the turret's mass is always balanced.

And with the SXXI the frontal armor has been increased.

Hmmm, interesting indeed. I would want to ask about one thing more. Is this ERA inclined? Russian and Ukrainian studies concluded that ERA (of any type) to provide the best performance should be inclined at approx 60 degrees or more (this is for turret and hull front). I assume that French conclusion was similiar, but it is hard to see how it would be realized on Leclerc in existing configurations. I only seen drawings in fragments of Mr. Chassilian (don't know if written properly) book with Leclerc turret having ERA in such extremely inclined configuration installed.

Not that I eard of.

The problem still is that there is no way to make an autoloader (where ammo are set in a single belt) with a third line of ammunition.

I was thinking about something like slightly enlarging turret bustle to allow installation of autoloader with similiar design to Meggitt compact high capacity autoloader developed for M1 series. Such high capacity autoloader would be rather desirable.

[DarkLabor]

So the plate that is there on the Leclerc s3 T10 is not even bullet proof against HMG fire?

Well if you take a look at the thickness of those plates on T10 (before the retrofit), you'll not even ask.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b0/Leclerc-openphotonet_PICT5993.JPG

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Leclerc-openphotonet_PICT6015.JPG

On the T11 and T10 retrofitted, you see the plating popping out of the profile.

And concerning the LOS diagram for the Leclerc, is the lower glacis and gunshield really that vulnerable? What is happening in the area where the Air Conditioning unit is ? Would a hit in that area compromise the integrity of the fighting compartment somehow ?

Lower glacis is actually pretty weak. But it was designed in a way that you got be shot from very below to be catastrophic.

The gunshield isn't well documented.

What I do know is that the constuctor don't hesitate to upgrade the armor where needed. So why not on/in the gunshield. Especially when you see drawings where the gunshield can be upgraded.

The area that you qualify as A-C is in fact the bulge to have room for the traverse mechanism. A hit there shouldn't be a big deal IRL.

[DarkLabor]

Hmmm, interesting indeed. I would want to ask about one thing more. Is this ERA inclined? Russian and Ukrainian studies concluded that ERA (of any type) to provide the best performance should be inclined at approx 60 degrees or more (this is for turret and hull front). I assume that French conclusion was similiar, but it is hard to see how it would be realized on Leclerc in existing configurations. I only seen drawings in fragments of Mr. Chassilian (don't know if written properly) book with Leclerc turret having ERA in such extremely inclined configuration installed.

NDA stuff no can talk.

I was thinking about something like slightly enlarging turret bustle to allow installation of autoloader with similiar design to Meggitt compact high capacity autoloader developed for M1 series. Such high capacity autoloader would be rather desirable.

Well if you enlarge the turret bustle you put the stategic manoeuvrability at risk. If the tank is too large you won't be able to continu to use railroads and co.

Or you enlarge the autoloader and reduce the armor protecting it. Wich is useless. Because you'll end up with an exploded autoloader.

[Damian90]

Good point. I wonder tough, if Leclerc turret bustle is significantly smaller in terms of internal volume to M1's turret bustle? perhaps modified Meggit autoloader could fit without significant modification to turret bustle?

Overall it was a good autoloader design, giving significant edge in sense that it reduced need for frequent reloading.

Well thanks for answers.

[DarkLabor]

Good point. I wonder tough, if Leclerc turret bustle is significantly smaller in terms of internal volume to M1's turret bustle? perhaps modified Meggit autoloader could fit without significant modification to turret bustle?

Overall it was a good autoloader design, giving significant edge in sense that it reduced need for frequent reloading.

Well thanks for answers.

It is, but not so much.

We lose quite some space with the AL stucture wich garanty protection to the crew with it's ballistic pannel. But such lose is reduced by the trajectory of the ammo belt.

The problem with Meggit AL is that you lose time to switch top-to-bottom/bottom-up the ammunition.

Since the AMX 40, it was decided to store the rounds directly feedable to gain more time while reloading.

Thankfully progess with explosives make possible to have IE (what we call MURAT : MUnitions à Risques ATténués).

[DarkLabor]

Ah! A thing for Lavic:

Regarding the figures in the diagram, I don't really care.

I'd rather have a low armored Leclerc than fighting indefinately to prove that the armor is more efficient (with no data).

A little Leclerc is better than none.

As some guys said:

"Hard training, easy war...

But sometimes...

Hard training, hard war..."

[Froggy]

This is the real profile of the terre

[lavictoireestlavie]

This is the real profile of the terre

DarkLabor, i would also rather see a Leclerc with its inherent flaws and all then no Leclerc.

Saw this diagram a while back , the turret design minus the hump seems to be of a fairly low compared to the other western tanks.

Froggy did you ever tell during or after your time with the Leclerc that you need to ideally look for a hull down position to hide the vulnerable lower glacis in particular?

[DarkLabor]

DarkLabor, i would also rather see a Leclerc with its inherent flaws and all then no Leclerc.

It's not really inherent flaws but exagerated weakness.

The problem is that the armor composition is the one of a Leopard 2A4 or similar to it...

In reality, the Leclerc uses a much more dense armor.

The only thing I can highlight to support what I'm saying is that :

If we compare the Leclerc with a Leopard 2A4. The Leclerc has a shorter hull, shorter track, lighter track, an internal volume much more reduce, an armor with less volume, yet the weight of a Leopard 2A4.

[BlackDeath]

Mmhh, how come the figures are so much lower in the Leclerc wheb compared with a M1, though design of the Leclerc is so much recent? Is the armor more distributed around the whole vehicle?

[lavictoireestlavie]

Mmhh, how come the figures are so much lower in the Leclerc wheb compared with a M1, though design of the Leclerc is so much recent? Is the armor more distributed around the whole vehicle?

In the hull it is more distributed to the front. With the turret, it is more distributed in the front and to a lesser extent the side turret to offer/good decent protection in the frontal 60 degree arc.

The Leclerc S2 pictured in DejaWolfs LOS Diagram should have a turret weight of about 18,5 metric tons and a hull (L: 6.88m, W: ~3.50m) weight of about 38 metric tons. Compare that to a leopard 2A4 turret weight of 16 metric tons and a hull (L: 7.50 m, W: ~3.50 m ) weight of 39 metric tons.

top down view of a Leclerc s2 and leopard 2a6 model:

Note that the Leopard 2a6 has a turret weight of about 21,5 metric tons and a total vehicle weight of about 60,5 metric tons.