Steel Beasts: Content Wish List

[Stuart666]

12 hours ago, Iarmor said:

 

Making range cards/sector sketches for pre-prepared defensive positions is a standard procedure in every army. The Syrians made their owns and managed to inflict heavy losses on Israeli Centurions during the IDF breakthrough into Syria on October 11th 1973, using WW2 D-44 AT guns and T-34/85s dug in stationary positions. Anyway, most fighting in that war didn't involve pre-prepared defense positions.

I have never heard that Syrian claim, but the range measurements taken by the IDF for the pre-prepared tank ramparts, as early as 1972, were made with what-was-then 'modern equipment', possibly some early LRF. The Shot Cal tank itself, as you wrote, had none back then. The first tank in Israeli service with a LRF was the 1979 Merkava Mk. 1, followed by the M60A3 in 1981.

 

+1

Like you say, it was probably ranges taken with a laser. OTOH, they were actually claiming they were actually mounted on the Centurions, which a study of photos reveals it certainly wasnt a the case. I cant quite remember where I read it now , but it was one of two books, either Edgar O Ballances No Victor, no vanquished, or a book whose name I forget now by a guy called Katz on the 1973 war.  Well, lots of people were upset after 1973, and were coming up with strange reasons why things didnt turn out the way they expected.

 

I dont know how much they moved in the early stages. Kahalanis 'The Heights of Courage' seems to suggest that the early stages of the war were fought from the prewar build fighting positions, although its clear that in many places they were thrown out of those positions, and indeed they later went over to a counterattack to the gates of Damascus. At that point the commanders presumably must have been pretty good at figuring out ranges. All the good Syrian commanders were largely dead by then.

 

It would be nice to have actual maps showing the actual positions hour by hour. There is some in Heights of Courage, but not very good ones. There is some in the Osprey book about the Golan battle, but again, nothing really detailed enough to try and build scenarios from.

[Gibsonm]

22 minutes ago, Stuart666 said:

It would be nice to have actual maps showing the actual positions hour by hour. There is some in Heights of Courage, but not very good ones. There is some in the Osprey book about the Golan battle, but again, nothing really detailed enough to try and build scenarios from.

 

Do these help:

 

https://www.westpoint.edu/sites/default/files/inline-images/academics/academic_departments/history/Arab Israeli Wars/ArabIsareli11a.pdf

 

https://www.westpoint.edu/sites/default/files/inline-images/academics/academic_departments/history/Arab Israeli Wars/ArabIsareli11b.pdf

 

https://www.westpoint.edu/sites/default/files/inline-images/academics/academic_departments/history/Arab Israeli Wars/ArabIsraeli11Combined.pdf

 

[Stuart666]

Thanks for that. What Im really looking for is where the positions of the ramps were. Im planning on doing a video on Shot gunnery at some point, and it might be useful tocreate video of something that looks like what happened in 1973 as an intro. Necessarily I think its probably going to be less than optimal, simply because i dont think they ever released maps that detailed.

[Gibsonm]

1 hour ago, Stuart666 said:

Thanks for that. What Im really looking for is where the positions of the ramps were. Im planning on doing a video on Shot gunnery at some point, and it might be useful tocreate video of something that looks like what happened in 1973 as an intro. Necessarily I think its probably going to be less than optimal, simply because i dont think they ever released maps that detailed.

 

I don't think the general viewer would care.

If the aim is to display firing from prepared positions into an EA you could pick "anywhere" that was arid. At least then you'd actually have a map already.

If you want accuracy and specify an exact location then you now have the added overhead of creating the map that depicts that location.

 

Sorry if I'm derailing the "Content Wish List" thread.

 

[TSe419E]

1 hour ago, Stuart666 said:

Thanks for that. What Im really looking for is where the positions of the ramps were. Im planning on doing a video on Shot gunnery at some point, and it might be useful tocreate video of something that looks like what happened in 1973 as an intro. Necessarily I think its probably going to be less than optimal, simply because i dont think they ever released maps that detailed.

I believe somebody has beat you to it:

 

 

[Stuart666]

On 12/17/2024 at 6:46 PM, TSe419E said:

I believe somebody has beat you to it:

 

 

Oh good oh, that is probably idea. Thanks.

[Iarmor]

On 12/17/2024 at 11:30 AM, Stuart666 said:

I dont know how much they moved in the early stages. Kahalanis 'The Heights of Courage' seems to suggest that the early stages of the war were fought from the prewar build fighting positions, although its clear that in many places they were thrown out of those positions, and indeed they later went over to a counterattack to the gates of Damascus.

 

In the northern sector, where Kahalani's 77th armored battalion fought, the 7th armored brigade managed to block the Syrian attacks firing mostly from ramparts, but its tanks had to maneuver in some cases (notably against the Syrian 43rd armored brigade).

In the southern sector, the 188th armored brigade tanks had to retreat from the ramparts after the Syrian tanks had broken through the line at darkness, when the Shot Cals couldn't engage them effectively. However, not all Israeli tanks in this sector fought from ramparts to begin with.

There was no case in which Israeli tanks lost a rampart to a direct Syrian attack. Same for strongholds, with the exception of Stronghold 102 on Mount Hermon.

The Israeli reserves, who were the majority among the Israeli forces, didn't fight from ramparts at all.

Also, it should be mentioned that most 7th armored brigade men weren't familiar with the Golan Heights and its ramparts, since its troops were rarely deployed to the Golan for several years before the war.

 

On 12/17/2024 at 11:30 AM, Stuart666 said:

It would be nice to have actual maps showing the actual positions hour by hour. There is some in Heights of Courage, but not very good ones. There is some in the Osprey book about the Golan battle, but again, nothing really detailed enough to try and build scenarios from.

 

On 12/17/2024 at 6:59 PM, Stuart666 said:

What Im really looking for is where the positions of the ramps were. Im planning on doing a video on Shot gunnery at some point, and it might be useful tocreate video of something that looks like what happened in 1973 as an intro. Necessarily I think its probably going to be less than optimal, simply because i dont think they ever released maps that detailed.

 

Check out this thread:

 

and this book:

 

Also, there is the video from the 'Valley of Tears' TV series:

 

Edited 20 hours ago by Iarmor