Prepared Positions - Best Waypoint Tactic? AI Assignment of Specific Tank to Specific Position? Move When Under ICM Fire?

[Jess]

I've been doing (multiple times, haven't passed yet but getting closer) the Camp Hornfelt Defend and Displace scenario using M1A2.  In part of the scenario, you put your platoon into prepared positions.  This has worked really well with the AI maneuvering the tanks right into the ditch and moving up and back according to the reload. 

 

What's the best SB way-point tactic to use, in order to keep the tanks in those positions?  Or is there some special logic associated with the prepared positions that will prevent tanks from pulling out of those positions to engage targets?  It seems like "hold" worked best so far.

 

I think I inadvertently discovered the answer to this, but just want to confirm.  The AI assigns a specific tank to a specific position, correct?  I had a situation where one AI tank was moving incredibly slow through a couple trees, so I jumped in and drove it real quick to a nearby position and pulled in.  It seemed like the AI was happy and adjusted the tank's position after I jumped out of it.  But then, another of my platoon's tanks came along behind and was very stubborn about wanting to pull into that same exact position - to the point the second tank kept moving forward and back, ramming the first tank.   Took me a few minutes to get that all sorted.

 

Last, what's the best thing to do, if your platoon is under direct fire and then also starts taking HE or ICM fire, all while dug in.  I think the answer is "stay put".  Getting out just is going to expose the tanks to even more peril.  Is that correct?  Or should the platoon retreat if under ICM fire because the prepared positions don't provide much defense against that? 

 

 

Thanks for any info/help!

Edited September 7 by Jess

[Captain_Colossus]

3 hours ago, Jess said:

 

Last, what's the best thing to do, if your platoon is under direct fire and than also starts taking HE or ICM fire, all while dug in.  I think the answer is "stay put".  Getting out just is going to expose the tanks to even more peril.  Is that correct?  Or should the platoon retreat if under ICM fire because the prepared positions don't provide much defense against that? 

 

 

the question needs context. it depends on your objective. a fortified position is not necessarily in and of itself important to hold, it may prima facie have no value, so is the objective to actually hold or block or delay or channel an attacker- suppose you did hold but the forces holding are now reduced to ineffective, that is, in a campaign where preserving resources is important because they would be needed for follow on operations.

 

on the other hand, if you retreated  even with no casualties, the enemy may have accomplished his objective- in other words if the scenario conceit itself stipulates that capture or holding defending position IS the objective, or perhaps the position is defending a vulnerable flank which cannot be left exposed, then you would act accordingly. generally though it is better to preserve your forces and have a contingency plan to fall back rather than allow the enemy to fix you and destroy you in place if the enemy has the artillery and resources to do that. then you might develop a counter attack to capture the position once more, frustrating the enemy's timetables having to commit more resources and generally cannot ignore the fortified position (and so in ukraine you have seen this - a smaller defending force capable of a mobile defense- that is, switching fortified positions, retreating then advancing, retreating then attacking once again, and generally creating a headache for an attacker is far better than just allowing itself to be destroyed in place). and all of this depends on the conditions of the scenario design in planning your defense ( where a layered defense is possible with multiple defense belts available for that- if not available, then your options are becoming constrained and you will have to consider that problem if there is nowhere to displace unexposed)

Edited June 1 by Captain_Colossus

[Ssnake]

To keep it short:

 

Read Chapter 8 of the User's Manual, specifically the parts about implicit embark conditions for routes coming from waypoints with assigned tactics.

[Ssnake]

Happy to answer specific questions that may still be open afterwards.

[Jess]

9 hours ago, Captain_Colossus said:

 

the question needs context. it depends on your objective. a fortified position is not necessarily in and of itself important to hold, it may prima facie have no value, so is the objective to actually hold or block or delay or channel an attacker- suppose you did hold but the forces holding are now reduced to ineffective, that is, in a campaign where preserving resources is important because they would be needed for follow on operations.

 

on the other hand, if you retreated  even with no casualties, the enemy may have accomplished his objective- in other words if the scenario conceit itself stipulates that capture or holding defending position IS the objective, or perhaps the position is defending a vulnerable flank which cannot be left exposed, then you would act accordingly. generally though it is better to preserve your forces and have a contingency plan to fall back rather than allow the enemy to fix you and destroy you in place if the enemy has the artillery and resources to do that. then you might develop a counter attack to capture the position once more, frustrating the enemy's timetables having to commit more resources and generally cannot ignore the fortified position (and so in ukraine you have seen this - a smaller defending force capable of a mobile defense- that is, switching fortified positions, retreating then advancing, retreating then attacking once again, and generally creating a headache for an attacker is far better than just allowing itself to be destroyed in place). and all of this depends on the conditions of the scenario design in planning your defense ( where a layered defense is possible with multiple defense belts available for that- if not available, then your options are becoming constrained and you will have to consider that problem if there is nowhere to displace unexposed)

@Captain_Colossus In the scenario, my platoon is in the prepared positions  in order to serve as one of three prongs of an ambush.  About 1km to my north is another Abrams platoon, and maybe 1.5 - 2km to my west is a Bradley platoon.  These other two platoons are also dug in.  Together, we all form the three points of a triangle.  We are attacking a company of T-80, with maybe an attached platoon of mechanized infantry, as they advanced along a path that passes between our positions of the other three platoons.  I need to avoid getting any of my tanks destroyed.  So I could move out of the positions to get a different view of the engagement area or to get out of the are being impacted by indirect fire, as long as I can still see the engagement area and fire on the enemy company.

 

I guess I'm wondering which is safer, while under both direct fire and indirect fire.  Sit tight in the prepared positions, or get up and move.  I think that, if the enemy direct fire is pretty on target even while I'm in my hull down position, then I'd better not back up and try to move.  But if the direct fire isn't too heavy and not too effective, maybe  can move.  Maybe pop-smoke first then move.

 

But what about the ICM?  Do the prepared positions protect my tanks from ICM?

[Jess]

7 hours ago, Ssnake said:

Happy to answer specific questions that may still be open afterwards.

@Ssnake I think I have a few questions about how "unit behavior for waypoint tactics" may change when the a  tank unit is occupying two tiered prepared positions (I think the ones in my scenario are two tiered - the tank moves up to fire from a hull down position then moves back to reload in what I assume is a turret down position).

 

The chart in the manual on page 118 indicates that:

• Hold tactics - tanks will move to avoid ICM
• Defend - tanks will move to avoid ICM and HE (but only if not engaging an enemy); tanks will also move to engage enemies on front flanks that cannot be seen
• Guard - same as defend

 

When the tank unit is occupying prepared positions and the tank unit is assigned any of the above tactics, will the tanks still move under the same circumstances?  I think the answer is no, correct?  Being in the prepared position seems to mean the tanks will not move in any of the above situations even when the nearest waypoint, from which the tanks occupied the positions, is assigned any of these three tactics.

 

It looks like, on page 120, the manual does specify I can cause my tanks to leave their prepared positions by creating an unconditioned route leaving the waypoint from which the tanks occupied the prepared positions.

[Captain_Colossus]

17 hours ago, Jess said:

@Captain_Colossus

 

But what about the ICM?  Do the prepared positions protect my tanks from ICM?

 

ICM bomblets virtually need a direct top hit on an armored vehicle to have effect anyway- fortifications do not necessarily add any more protection that the armor does not provide whether the vehicle is dug in or not vs ICM, it does however slow the process of reversing and so

it is much more difficult to avoid. the fortifications provide more protection against unitary HE shells and direct fire from other vehicles than against ICM. also, if i have the artillery available, i tend to bracket artillery missions so that even if defender elects to displace, it reverses or routes into more artillery. so stay or leave is two bad options

 

if you want to correlate to real world results, again using the war in ukraine as a thermometer for what this might be, the vehicles are usually dispersed and camouflaged and stashed in forests and among trees and this sort of thing until it is decided they are to engage somewhere. based on my observation- take it with a grain of salt- they are not usually dug in at the contact line where they are likely to be observed and shelled or sorted out by FPV suicide drones. i have seen more cases where it was the infantry that suffered more under ICM fire or vehicles detected out in the open (again usually on the attack) where you tend to see ICM used to disrupt movements, or notwithstanding that, SAM sites and rocket and missile systems parked in the open

 

but i also presume that your steel beasts scenario does not involve all of that, which again means that it will change depending on the context

Edited June 2 by Captain_Colossus

[Ssnake]

5 hours ago, Jess said:

@Ssnake I think I have a few questions about how "unit behavior for waypoint tactics" may change when the a  tank unit is occupying two tiered prepared positions

(Automatic) manuvering between different positions of cover will not change the behavior of the unit. This will change only on embarkation on a new route (=when leaving a waypoint), or on arrival at the next waypoint.

[Ssnake]

5 hours ago, Jess said:

When the tank unit is occupying prepared positions and the tank unit is assigned any of the above tactics, will the tanks still move under the same circumstances?

Yes - provided that there is at least one unconditioned route leading away from a battle position, as you found on page 120. It is the crucial side condition. Without a suitable exit route from a battle position, units will always assume Hold tactics, no matter what tactic (other than Stay) has been chosen.

[Hedgehog]

On 6/2/2024 at 9:34 AM, Ssnake said:

Yes - provided that there is at least one unconditioned route leading away from a battle position, as you found on page 120. It is the crucial side condition. Without a suitable exit route from a battle position, units will always assume Hold tactics, no matter what tactic (other than Stay) has been chosen.

When writing scenarios I always use 2 retreat routes

1 unconditioned

The second has conditions such as embark if this unit can see at least 1 enemyany where and a delay of say, 2 mins, to avoid artillery.

Usually to a common waypoint.

Which then goes off to "wherever"

 

That way you can set a unit to "guard" and they will relocate if fired at

And they will relocate if the enemy spots them and didn't engage them but has IDF assets avaliable.