M1A2 AI not ID and firing over 4000 meters which is within its Ballistic Solution parameters.

[Assassin 7]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before but now to add to the AI not firing over 4000meters, the AI will not even ID targets over 4000 meters. 

Sep within B-range.sce

Edited March 24, 2023 by Assassin 7

[Volcano]

Yes, IIRC this is not new behavior and is a feature. I guess this might be a result of over examination. You can see this same behavior back in 4.363, for example.

 

It is because the M829A3 has a max effective range of 4000m (you can see this in the ammunition dialog where it lists the ammo, with the "range" value).  The AI will not fire beyond the ammo's max effective range, so it is left up to the human to do that (mainly to avoid the AI wasting ammo). Some rounds in SB have a max range of 5000m, but these are the L55 rounds with a bit less dispersion. What is special about the M1A2 with the FLIR is that it spots targets to the map (AI) up to and past 5km, unlike other vehicles, though.

 

 

[Assassin 7]

16 minutes ago, Volcano said:

Yes, IIRC this is not new behavior and is a feature. I guess this might be a product of over-evaluation. You can see this same behavior in 4.363.

 

It is because the M829A3 has a max effective range of 4000m (you can see this in the ammunition dialog where it lists the ammo, with the "range" value).  The AI will not fire beyond the ammo's max effective range, so it is left up to the human to do that (mainly to avoid the AI wasting ammo). Some rounds in SB have a max range of 5000m, but these are the L55 rounds with a bit less dispersion. What is special about the M1A2 with the FLIR is that it spot targets to the map (AI) up to and past 5km, unlike other vehicles.

 

 

The AI used to identify the Targets but not shoot. either way now the AI does not ID

Edited March 24, 2023 by Assassin 7

[Volcano]

No, I just compared 4.363 and 4.379 earlier and both are the same. The enemy target shows up on the map past 4km, but is not engaged (because of the ammo range).  What am I not understanding here?

 

 

[Assassin 7]

2 minutes ago, Volcano said:

No, I just compared 4.363 and 4.379 earlier and both are the same. The enemy target shows up on the map past 4km, but does not engage.  What am I not understanding here?

 

 

The AI now will not ID targets, version 4.363 the AI would ID the Target. IRL they should be engaging due to the SEP Ballistic Solution Range being 200-5000meters.

Edited March 24, 2023 by Assassin 7

[Volcano]

Here is an image from 4.379, where the AI M1A2 has ID'd a red tank and reported it to the map out to 6km (which is kind of ridiculous, but OK it happens). So, I am not sure what the issue is here when you say that the AI doesn't ID it.

 

[Assassin 7]

Just now, Volcano said:

Here is an image from 4.379, where the AI M1A2 has ID'd a red tank and reported it to the map out to 6km (which is kind of ridiculous, but OK it happens). So, I am not sure what the issue is here when you say that the AI doesn't ID it.

 

If you can see the Target at those ranges which the SEP can depending on the weather. It should have the contact report anyways. 

[Volcano]

I guess I am not understanding the issue here. That target in the image is beyond visual range, so it is certainly "spotting it" with the FLIR ability. What else should it be doing?

[Higgs]

32 minutes ago, Volcano said:

Some rounds in SB have a max range of 5000m, but these are the L55 rounds with a bit less dispersion.

If you don't mind explaining, does the FCS not block shots at that range? I just went into the Scenario Editor to check. I chose a round which was labeled with range 5000m and my FCS showed a 0420A in the eyepiece. (I chose the ammo as my first ammo so that's why it was A.) I was using the Leopard 2A6MA2. Is it supposed to do that or is it supposed to give you an F?

[TSe419E]

7 minutes ago, Volcano said:

No, I just compared 4.363 and 4.379 earlier and both are the same. The enemy target shows up on the map past 4km, but is not engaged (because of the ammo range).  What am I not understanding here?

 

 

I had a situation today (using a Leo 2A5) where I could see an enemy vehicle, lase and get a range just over 4000m, yet no icon was reported on the map.

[Volcano]

26 minutes ago, Higgs said:

If you don't mind explaining, does the FCS not block shots at that range? I just went into the Scenario Editor to check. I chose a round which was labeled with range 5000m and my FCS showed a 0420A in the eyepiece. (I chose the ammo as my first ammo so that's why it was A.) I was using the Leopard 2A6MA2. Is it supposed to do that or is it supposed to give you an F?

Good question.

 

So basically it works like this:

 

There are three limits, the ballistic computer range, (LRF range for when a ballistic computer is present), and the ammo range.  The AI will not fire at a target if the target is beyond the shortest of those limits. So you might have a ballistic computer that can calculate out to 5km or more, but if the round has an effective range something less, then the AI will not engage (as mentioned, usually this is to prevent the AI from wasting its ammo due to dispersion, or other factors).

 

Some vehicles have a ballistic computer limit of 4km, even though they might have ammo that has a max effective range of 5km. If there are some L44 ammo with a range of 5000m then this is probably a mistake in the ammo data (but the AI wouldn't shoot with it anyway if the FCS is limited to 4km on those vehicles). So, again, its more for the L55 longer guns. 

 

Edit: To be clear, the Leo 2A6MA2 you used has a max ballistic computer range set to 4km.

[Assassin 7]

So to explain: The AI Gunner should report the contact if he can see it. Now given how the game design is with the round I guess it makes more sense to the game than if you would expect IRL cause if a stationary tank was sitting infront of me within my Ballistic Solution Range at 4200meters. I am taking that shot. IMO it should be limit to I guess what you guys gave the rounds at far as Range goes cause those Services Rounds will fly far depending on the super elevation when fired. Those AI Ranges should be determined based on the Ballistic Solution Ranges which would make more sense. 

[Volcano]

4 minutes ago, TSe419E said:

I had a situation today (using a Leo 2A5) where I could see an enemy vehicle, lase and get a range just over 4000m, yet no icon was reported on the map.

Correct, this is how it has always been.

 

So basically, a very few select vehicles are given a "FLIR" ability, this essentially represents not only the higher resolution thermal sight, but higher digital zoom levels.  Those vehicles will ID targets past 4km.  The vehicles without this capability will not ID targets past 4km, because the rationale is that with a limited 10x zoom with no digital zoom, then a human (and AI) would not be able to tell what the target is past 4km, having the appearance of a dot.  The AH-64 and the M1A2 are two vehicles that have the FLIR ability, among a few others (like perhaps the latest Leo 2 that may or may not exist).

 

 

[Volcano]

12 minutes ago, Assassin 7 said:

So to explain: The AI Gunner should report the contact if he can see it. Now given how the game design is with the round I guess it makes more sense to the game than if you would expect IRL cause if a stationary tank was sitting infront of me within my Ballistic Solution Range at 4200meters. I am taking that shot. IMO it should be limit to I guess what you guys gave the rounds at far as Range goes cause those Services Rounds will fly far depending on the super elevation when fired. Those AI Ranges should be determined based on the Ballistic Solution Ranges which would make more sense. 

I am sorry, but nothing is different here from the previous versions AFAICT.

 

The way it works is this:

 

The AI "sees" the target (IDs it to the map) but otherwise ignores it, because it cannot (will not) engage, because it is out of the ammo range. This is because we don't want the AI staring at targets it will not engage, and so instead continues to scan for targets that it can engage.

 

Also, even if there is no bug here, please leave this post for future reference by others (some good information here on how it all works).

 

 

[Volcano]

...now I should mention, that if there are some more advanced M829A4+ rounds that are rated with a longer effective range than 4km (because perhaps ballistics have been improved), then that would be nice to add into SB at some point, allowing the AI to fire out to 5km. 👍

 

But we haven't had any info on that yet, or perhaps haven't had much time to look for it (one of the two)...

[Higgs]

14 minutes ago, Volcano said:

Good question.

 

So basically it works like this:

 

There are three limits, the ballistic computer range, (LRF range for when a ballistic computer is present), and the ammo range.  The AI will not fire at a target if the target is beyond the shortest of those limits. So you might have a ballistic computer that can calculate out to 5km or more, but if the round has an effective range something less, then the AI will not engage (as mentioned, usually this is to prevent the AI from wasting its ammo due to dispersion, or other factors).

 

Some vehicles have a ballistic computer limit of 4km, even though they might have ammo that has a max effective range of 5km. If there are some L44 ammo with a range of 5000m then this is probably a mistake in the ammo data (but the AI wouldn't shoot with it anyway if the FCS is limited to 4km on those vehicles). So, again, its more for the L55 longer guns. 

I'm sorry if I annoy you with this but this hasn't quite answered my question. What you described appears to be a solid system to decide whether the AI would engage a target or not. This is pretty neat.

I am more specifically wondering about the Leopard 2A6MA2. Can it's fire control system calculate a shot above 4km? (Assuming the round is capable of it without a dispersion that is too big and is rated for 5km.)

I tried to do so and it blocked the shot so I could only fire with the emergency trigger. I specifically made sure the round was rated for 5km. So I'm left wondering if the 2A6MA2 version is capable of engagning targets at that range? Not necessarily by means of the AI but more so by controled by a human player.

[Assassin 7]

10 minutes ago, Volcano said:

...now I should mention, that if there are some more advanced M829A4+ rounds that are rated with a longer effective range than 4km (because perhaps ballistics have been improved), then that would be nice to add into SB at some point, allowing the AI to fire out to 5km. 👍

 

But we haven't had any info on that yet, or perhaps haven't had much time to look for it (one of the two)...

Understood and cant wait to see the A4 then. Here is some info off the web

M1A2 SEP Main Battle Tank | Military-Today.com

The tank is armed with the same M256 120 mm smoothbore gun as its predecessor. Range of effective fire is in excess of 4 km. It can fire the M829A3 APFSDS rounds with depleted uranium penetrator and M1028 canister rounds that discharges massive blast of tungsten fragments at muzzle exit. 

 

[Volcano]

2 minutes ago, Assassin 7 said:

Understood and cant wait to see the A4 then. Here is some info off the web

M1A2 SEP Main Battle Tank | Military-Today.com

The tank is armed with the same M256 120 mm smoothbore gun as its predecessor. Range of effective fire is in excess of 4 km. It can fire the M829A3 APFSDS rounds with depleted uranium penetrator and M1028 canister rounds that discharges massive blast of tungsten fragments at muzzle exit. 

 

Yeah, I would like to see that added (and other new rounds). Let's see what happens. 😁

[Assassin 7]

also FYI If I can remember correctly I dont believe the M1A1 HA can fire the M829A3 ammunition anyways due to the Breech Modification needed

Edited March 24, 2023 by Assassin 7

[Volcano]

9 minutes ago, Higgs said:

I'm sorry if I annoy you with this but this hasn't quite answered my question. What you described appears to be a solid system to decide whether the AI would engage a target or not. This is pretty neat.

I am more specifically wondering about the Leopard 2A6MA2. Can it's fire control system calculate a shot above 4km? (Assuming the round is capable of it without a dispersion that is too big and is rated for 5km.)

I tried to do so and it blocked the shot so I could only fire with the emergency trigger. I specifically made sure the round was rated for 5km. So I'm left wondering if the 2A6MA2 version is capable of engagning targets at that range? Not necessarily by means of the AI but more so by controled by a human player.

 

No worries, you are not annoying me.

 

Right, I went back and added an edit to my post that you might have missed.  The Leo 2A6MA2 has a max ballistic computer range set to 4000m, but a max laser range of 9990m. So, when you lase a target, you *should* be able to get a range out to 9990m, but the ballistic computer will not calculate a solution beyond 4000m.

 

(Now off the top of my head, I don't recall what is displayed in the Leo 2 optic in this situation, like on the US tanks the range will flash if lased-range beyond ballistic computer solution range). 

 

On the other hand, it might be that in real life the Leo 2A6MA2's computer *can* calculate out to 5km. If it can, that would be an issue that is easily fixed, but IIRC I don't think we have had any information provided to us yet that says otherwise (if I recall, I think it was something that the 2A7s do, but the 2A6MA2 could have this 2A7 feature, perhaps, who knows).

[Volcano]

7 minutes ago, Assassin 7 said:

also FYI If I can remember correctly I dont believe the M1A1 HA cant fire the M829A3 ammunition anyways due to the Breech Modification needed

 

Interesting, if you can look into that and 100% confirm (through public available info of course), then that would be a good thing to correct in a future update (removing M829A3 from M1A1 and M1A1(HA)).  Let me know.

[Higgs]

1 minute ago, Volcano said:

 

No worries, you are not annoying me.

 

Right, I went back and added an edit to my post that you might have missed.  The Leo 2A6MA2 has a max ballistic computer range set to 4000m, but a max laser range of 9990m. So, when you lase a target, you *should* be able to get a range out to 9990m, but the ballistic computer will not calculate a solution beyond 4000m.

 

(Now off the top of my head, I don't recall what is displayed in the Leo 2 optic in this situation, like on the US tanks the range will flash if beyond ballistic computer solution range). 

 

On the other hand, it might be that in real life the Leo 2A6MA2's computer *can* calculate out to 5km. If it can, that would be an issue that is easily fixed, but IIRC I don't think we have had any information provided to us yet that says otherwise (if I recall, I think it was something that the 2A7s do, but the 2A6MA2 could have this 2A7 feature, perhaps, who knows).

Ah I see. I was confused because I figured you were only talking inside the realms of Steel Beasts. To my knowledge the A6MA2 is the most advanced Leopard 2 system in Steel Beasts (aside maybe the Leopardo 2E, which I don't know a lot about) so I wasn't sure what other vehicle would be equipped with a L55 gun.
Unfortunately I don't have any real life experience with the L55 so I wasn't sure if the A6 version can range for more than 4km.

Anyway, you answered my question, so thank you very much.

[Volcano]

23 minutes ago, Higgs said:

Ah I see. I was confused because I figured you were only talking inside the realms of Steel Beasts. To my knowledge the A6MA2 is the most advanced Leopard 2 system in Steel Beasts (aside maybe the Leopardo 2E, which I don't know a lot about) so I wasn't sure what other vehicle would be equipped with a L55 gun.
Unfortunately I don't have any real life experience with the L55 so I wasn't sure if the A6 version can range for more than 4km.

Anyway, you answered my question, so thank you very much.

 

Right, I was talking in and out of the realm of SB. But speaking of SB only, IIRC these are the variants equipped with the L55 gun:

 

Leopardo 2E

Leopard 2A6

Leopard 2A6MA2

 

All of these are limited to 4km engagement range in both ammo range and ballistic computer. Now whether that changes in the future with new Leo variants and different ammo, who knows. But the advantage of these L55 tanks here is that their ammo velocity and penetration are higher than those same around on the L44 (so, more firepower, not more range). Later Leo variants may allow for increased engagement ranges. I was also typing from memory, not recalling at the time if any ammo in SB had a max range of "5000", and I have since looked and the answer is no.

 

I think the problem here is that we were talking about multiple things at the same time in this thread:  AI engagements (who strictly adhere to the shortest limit) and user engagements (who can engage targets if the ballistic computer range is further than the ammo, using their own judgement, which is currently really only something you can do on the M1A2 and Challenger 2), which caused the confusion.

[Higgs]

7 hours ago, Volcano said:

 

Right, I was talking in and out of the realm of SB. But speaking of SB only, IIRC these are the variants equipped with the L55 gun:

 

Leopardo 2E

Leopard 2A6

Leopard 2A6MA2

 

All of these are limited to 4km engagement range in both ammo range and ballistic computer. Now whether that changes in the future with new Leo variants and different ammo, who knows. But the advantage of these L55 tanks here is that their ammo velocity and penetration are higher than those same around on the L44 (so, more firepower, not more range). Later Leo variants may allow for increased engagement ranges. I was also typing from memory, not recalling at the time if any ammo in SB had a max range of "5000", and I have since looked and the answer is no.

 

I think the problem here is that we were talking about multiple things at the same time in this thread:  AI engagements (who strictly adhere to the shortest limit) and user engagements (who can engage targets if the ballistic computer range is further than the ammo, using their own judgement, which is currently really only something you can do on the M1A2 and Challenger 2), which caused the confusion.

Alright thank you very much. That what I wasn't sure about.