M60A3 TTS - Gunner Issue

[Mirzayev]

I found that when using the M60A3 TTS in instant action, the gunner has serious issues actually firing at anything. He keeps lasing, putting the reticle well over the target, before announcing "we've got problems." 

 

Interestingly, I never knew that was a piece of dialogue in the game. 

 

 

Steps to reproduce:

 

1. Load the M60A3 TTS in Instant Action.

 

2. Designate the gunner to a target and order him to fire.

 

3. "We've got problems."

 

 

[Ssnake]

Now bug #11293.

[Higgs]

2 hours ago, Mirzayev said:

 

"We've got problems."

 

 

Uh, Fort Benning, we've had a problem.

[Monkie]

I see the same behavior on several maps so I don't think it's map related. The gunner is getting sometimes between 4 and 6 laser range returns. If you select which return looks the most accurate with the 1, 2 or 3 key (1st, 2nd, Last) and then press 5 to FEED the information into the fire control he will usually fire however it's not always dependable. I thought perhaps this wasn't a bug but how the laser range finder works in real life and something the real crews had to contend with.

 

I make sure to press 4 to Battles Sight and then Numpad 0 to reset the range finder and sometimes this does help because if the gunner manages to get 1 return he will go to town and engage multiple targets accurately even without the commander re-setting between each engagement but sometimes he gets stuck with the multiple returns and the reticle moves around a bit on the target and you get the "we got problems" audio. It also seems to make a difference what kind of round is loaded as to whether the gunner will fire, if there are obstructions or the target is over 2000 meters the gunner is reluctant to fire anything other than SABOT rounds. 

 

One last observation is that when the gunner gets multiple returns if I then take over from the TC position I can usually lase for one return, so in that case I'm not sure what the difference is between the AI and player.

 

I have no experience whatsoever with any LRF equipment so what is a bug and what is intended as simulation for the M60A3's quirks is something I am very curious about. Appreciate the team looking at this behavior.

[Jartsev]

If LRF receives  multiple returns not meeting automatic feed requirements(yellow 'SEL' light is lit on LRF face plate),  user at TC's position should evaluate them and feed proper one (1st, 2nd or LAST) manually.  So  if you hear   AI gunner announcing 'We got problem!', go  to eye view, check measured range values, and index one which looks appropriate.

[Mirzayev]

I'll admit that I learned something.

 

So, why does this cause lead to not be applied? From what I can tell in the wiki, the Feed button doesn't reset lead. 

 

 

[Monkie]

1 hour ago, Mirzayev said:

 

So, why does this cause lead to not be applied? From what I can tell in the wiki, the Feed button doesn't reset lead. 

 

 

I've also noticed that behavior, sometimes he will lead perfectly other times he constantly refuses to apply the lead after you FEED the LRF.

 

Here is another issue with the keyboard and mouse relation to the buttons n the LRF. Pressing the buttons with the mouse allows a LMB RMB behavior (LMB turns the light on, RMB turns the light off) whereas the buttons (ie button 4 and NUMPAD 0) only allow a LMB behavior. So what is the correct behavior for the buttons, are they on/off or only push buttons? The mouse would make us believe they are on/off.

 

I just ran another range test and the gunner seems to fire SABOT rounds without problem with one laser return but after I command him to fire HEAT he will fire one round with no issue but refuses to continue firing HEAT rounds after that. If I switch to SABOT he fires without hesitation. 

 

Unfortunately there is more that needs to be looked at with regards to the M60A3's gunner TC LRF interaction.

Edited October 2, 2022 by Monkie

[Jartsev]

14 hours ago, Monkie said:

 

I just ran another range test and the gunner seems to fire SABOT rounds without problem with one laser return but after I command him to fire HEAT he will fire one round with no issue but refuses to continue firing HEAT rounds after that. If I switch to SABOT he fires without hesitation. 

 

 This particular HEAT has 1500m effective range defined in its properties, and this is a cut-off limit for AI gunners of any vehicle using this round in game, not only M60A3

[Jartsev]

15 hours ago, Monkie said:

Here is another issue with the keyboard and mouse relation to the buttons n the LRF. Pressing the buttons with the mouse allows a LMB RMB behavior (LMB turns the light on, RMB turns the light off) whereas the buttons (ie button 4 and NUMPAD 0) only allow a LMB behavior. So what is the correct behavior for the buttons, are they on/off or only push buttons? The mouse would make us believe they are on/off.

 

-4 duplicates clickable 'Reset' button, and does only one thing- resets LRF for the next lase by TC (for GNR, releasing palm switches does the same thing)

-Num0 is a 'Battle Range' button, and brings LRF  LOS in alignment with GPS LOS at ~1600meters (do not remember exactly) for close range engagements to minimize error due to parallax; only wat to reset it in SB- to  fire LRF, and none of clickable buttons have right click  action; if you  right-clicking, you are lasing.

 

[Jartsev]

16 hours ago, Mirzayev said:

So, why does this cause lead to not be applied? From what I can tell in the wiki, the Feed button doesn't reset lead. 

...but since range is indexed by TC, lead is not applied automatically- same logic as with TC override. How it was supposed in real life needs to be investigated at our side...

[Mirzayev]

2 hours ago, Jartsev said:

...but since range is indexed by TC, lead is not applied automatically- same logic as with TC override. How it was supposed in real life needs to be investigated at our side...

 

Which if that is how it works in real life (based on the outcomes of research) then the gunner should at least attempt to apply manual lead, similar to how this works in non-stabilized modes on other vehicles. 

Edited October 3, 2022 by Mirzayev

[Monkie]

7 hours ago, Jartsev said:

 This particular HEAT has 1500m effective range defined in its properties, and this is a cut-off limit for AI gunners of any vehicle using this round in game, not only M60A3

 

That answers that question thanks, I was engaging right at 1500 meters with the HEAT so now I fully understand why sometimes he was firing and sometimes not. One side note is that if the gunner is firing SABOT beyond 1500m and you then select him to fire HEAT he will fire one round past 1500 meters but then stop.

 

 

7 hours ago, Jartsev said:

 

-4 duplicates clickable 'Reset' button, and does only one thing- resets LRF for the next lase by TC (for GNR, releasing palm switches does the same thing)

-Num0 is a 'Battle Range' button, and brings LRF  LOS in alignment with GPS LOS at ~1600meters (do not remember exactly) for close range engagements to minimize error due to parallax; only wat to reset it in SB- to  fire LRF, and none of clickable buttons have right click  action; if you  right-clicking, you are lasing.

 

 

Ok I see that now, even though the cursor is over the button it's the actual RMB lasing that is turning off the BTTL RNG button light, got it thanks.

 

 

[Monkie]

Going back to what Mirzayev is talking about in regards to the Gunner not leading after feeding one of the returns, this happens pretty consistently as long as the gunner doesn't get 1 or 2 returns and fires without the TC needing to choose and feed the range. 

 

The wiki states that no lead will be induced if the TC is engaging from the LRF main sight but in this case the TC isn't the one engaging, it's the gunner using either his Main Sight or the TTS Sight. If the TC commands fire and the gunner lases and gets only 1 or 2 returns he will fire and lead the target. If the gunner gets more than 2 returns the TC has to choose which return makes the most sense and feeds the range using the FEED button but when doing so the reticle removes all the current lead, moves to the target center mass and the gunner fires with the round falling behind the target. 

 

So is it the case that anytime the TC has to feed the range into the LRF that it's assuming the TC is the one firing and hence no lead is induced causing the gunner to consistently not apply lead to a moving target?

[Jartsev]

21 minutes ago, Monkie said:

Going back to what Mirzayev is talking about in regards to the Gunner not leading after feeding one of the returns, this happens pretty consistently as long as the gunner doesn't get 1 or 2 returns and fires without the TC needing to choose and feed the range. 

 

The wiki states that no lead will be induced if the TC is engaging from the LRF main sight but in this case the TC isn't the one engaging, it's the gunner using either his Main Sight or the TTS Sight. If the TC commands fire and the gunner lases and gets only 1 or 2 returns he will fire and lead the target. If the gunner gets more than 2 returns the TC has to choose which return makes the most sense and feeds the range using the FEED button but when doing so the reticle removes all the current lead, moves to the target center mass and the gunner fires with the round falling behind the target. 

 

So is it the case that anytime the TC has to feed the range into the LRF that it's assuming the TC is the one firing and hence no lead is induced causing the gunner to consistently not apply lead to a moving target?

Whole problem seems to be a collision between  TC override and   gunner's routines; hopefully programmers would  be able to address it.

[Monkie]

Doing a little more work with the M60A3 gunner and it seems if you disable the Laser Range Finder the gunner will fire with great accuracy and correctly lead. So this could be part of the initial bug or something else.

 

I ran the same scenario and was lasing T-62's at about 2800 meters with them approaching on an angle and the LRF will return multiple returns usually and if any one is selected by the TC the gunner will never properly lead. If the gunner happens to return 2 or less ranges he will fire and lead properly. Run the same scenario again with the LRF destroyed and the gunner will engage at the same range but will do a very good job of leading and gets a lot of first found hits.