4.268 - Soviet tracked vehicle's commander's periscope elevation angle - bug #2173

[Lumituisku]

So long time ago I was fustrated because T-72 commander couldn't elevate it's periscope over seeming 0 degrees.  

Back then answer I got from developers was as I remember it, something along these lines:  "Commanders periscope elevation is limited because of the physical movement of the periscope."  

Back then I accepted it, because I had no access or could not find any information or source that would prove that statement wrong.  Over the years I have accuired Russian speacking friends and pestered them to search "proof" for agaisn't that statement with no success.  This data just simply isn't mentioned on manuals of the vehicle, or anywhere I was able to access.  I even tried contacting museum to get peace for myself about this matter for once. (My messages weren't replied to or when face to face, I was said that if I join the guild I might get change to...  etc)

 

The best source I have been able to find was from this blog called "Tankograd"  https://thesovietarmourblog.blogspot.com/p/home.html

I have linked it several times over the year.  Problem is that sources are not mentioned. I could and will ask, if need to. - I do hope that this what I am going to write and illustrate below with pictures is enough to convince you developers of the issue, that I wouldn't need to.   In his blog he gives following values and descriptions for commander periscopes in various Soviet / Russian armored vehicles.

 

T-72 - TKN-3M To scan in elevation, the TKN-3M can be elevated by +12 degrees and depressed by -8 degrees. The full range of elevation is 20 degrees, and the total vertical field of view is 30 degrees. This was a noticeable improvement over preceding medium tanks, which had an elevation range of only -5 degrees to +10 degrees.

https://thesovietarmourblog.blogspot.com/2015/05/t-72-soviet-progeny.html#tkn-3m

 

T-62 - TKN-2 "Karmin"  The periscope could be manually elevated upwards by +10° and downwards by -5°, and the cupola would have to be manually spun to scan horizontally.

https://thesovietarmourblog.blogspot.com/2015/12/t-62.html#tkn-2

 

BMP-2       The range of elevation is +10° to -5°

https://thesovietarmourblog.blogspot.com/2016/05/bmp-2.html#tkn-3

 

 

 

Mine and my friends honest opinion is that commander periscopes on T-72s, T-55, T-62, and BMP-2  are next to useless because those cannot be elevated over 0 degrees.  And because those can depress in some cases.. insanely much.  (I think in past, I argued that there must be a bug because one can see trough turret roof [Now you can't but elevation didn't change]) 

 

Now I am going to try to illustrate problem in the game:

For all my testing and these pictures I made custom delta map  on  the "FLAT MAP"    And i edited terrain to be all hard and bumpines  values to  0     I also for double measures, put in highway, that I leveled. 

 

This is picture of T-72 on flat surface, taken with binoculars from other vehicle some distance away.

• Notice that horizontal line goes from commanders periscope to buildings "doorbell" that is located to left side and center in height.  So that is effectively  0  degrees elevation.

 

 

Aiming commanders periscope first down as far as it can we will see the stairs  ( I moved vehicle until croshair touches the stairs. )

 

 

And now aiming it as up as it goes.  Notice..  it has effectively 0 elevation 

 

 

Now.. the problem is not only lack of elevation.  But also that this makes this range measuring tool below reticle in commanders periscope practically useless.  

This is from direct front.  You cannot elevate it more than this. 

 

One simply cannot measure distance with that range finger.  It makes no sense.  And  when you cannot elevate periscope more than this...  any hill or anything..  makes this sight practically useless.  

 

Back to the argument.  "Commanders periscope elevation is limited because of the physical movement of the periscope."

 

I also toop pictures from Gunner location how commanders periscope actually looks when fully elevated.

• notice that it is upright "Vertical"

 

And when fully depressed

 

Okay. I get it, kind of what is the idea here. But I am not bying it. No...    Thing is on the source I found that says that TKM-3M can be elevated +12 degrees and depressed 8 degrees.

 

It seems obvious to me that there is mirror in an angle that makes it possible to elevate the sigh picture upwards?  

 

 

 

 

Also..  here is what gunner can see in comparison.

 

This is what gunner can see when gun is elevated as high as possible.

 

Red line shows where optic center is.

 

And as depressed as possible.

 

 

 

 

 

This problem that commanders periscope doesn't have elevation. Is present on all crewable tracked vehicles of Soviet / Russian origin.  (Not a problem on wheeled BTRs or RDM-2  as these are okay in my opinion) 

 

But for example.. BMP-2 commanders periscope.. can depress insanely much. And it too.. cannot elevate more than 0 degrees. 

 

 

 

Values from https://thesovietarmourblog.blogspot.com/p/home.html  make sense to me. 

T-72. TKN 3M    -8 degrees  depression and +12 degrees elevation. 

T-55, T62 and BMP-2   TKN-2 and 3   -5 degrees depression  and +10 degrees elevation.  

 

 The way how things currently are..  DO NOT make sense in my opinion.    😔

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 12, 2022 by Lumituisku

[Lumituisku]

Okay. So that others can test and re-produce all.  Here is download link to custom  published delta map I made.   Download it.. and  put it to.    and unpack it there.  

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1h1dd_LJkszLIK-UQ7lou3jgzaVzG7Rh_/view?usp=sharing

 

And here is scenario I used for testing and making this post.  I used network session and used 3 licences at same time to get all these pictures as they are. 

TKN-3M-elevation test.sce

 

[Jartsev]

This is a known problem, but unfortunately values in your first post are also not quite right too.

[Ssnake]

1 hour ago, Jartsev said:

This is a known problem

... specifically, bug #2173 ...

[Lumituisku]

11 hours ago, Jartsev said:

This is a known problem, but unfortunately values in your first post are also not quite right too.

 

umm...   I do have a friend on the hotzone.  I could bribe him to get measurements. Atleast for T-72s, and perhaps BMP-2.   If so..  what would you need?   Any kind of idea how it could be measured and proven to be to your liking.  Photos? 

 

For T-55..   I can ask Finnish company that does "tank rides" and visit there to get measurements.  They may even have BMP-2   What would you need?    

[Lumituisku]

Asked for Tangograd for source to TKN-3 elevation   he replied with following:

 

The source for the elevation range of the TKN-3 is a 1988 Yugoslavian manual for the M-84 and T-72, "Pravilo Tenk M-84 i T-72: Prvi Deo", page 255. Technically it is actually for DNKS-2, but the range of elevation angles is the same for both TKN-3 and DNKS-2, as they are interchangeable.

Edited March 11, 2022 by Lumituisku