4.268 - T-tanks firing on left of target facing them

[Lumituisku]

So having had so many times... situation where we have lost GPS to enemy fire my friends got agrevated, especially after witnessing on one mission alone where we were on huldown position, something like 8 direct hits to GPS from like 16 shots from enemy..  and others were almost all on same side just not direct hits.   At the time, I was like.. it is just this one enemy tank type and distance factor  (namely close distance and t-64)   but no...   I have since kept my eyes open for this and uum...

 

today I did lot of testing and it seems that AI controlled T-72 tanks are firing left of target.   

 

My testing includet t64s, t72s,t80, t90, t14..  all that had clear preference to fire left, witch is bisarre. 

and t55 (that actually is bit of exception as it struggled to even hit target  )  

 

All western tanks old and new had either no clear preference or were shooting at center mass (usually as low as possible) (M1A2 was interesting mild exception firight very slightly to right for some reason? and Letlecrt was a sniper shooting very center on rather small area)

 

I did test different targets (T72, PT-76, Leopard2a4, and TTB) and some others I think... after testing all kinds of enemies with leopard 2a4.   All had same result. 

 

So I wonder why is this so?  Is this purposeful? 

 

Some notices.. 

- If target is in hull down enemy fires on top of turret.. and disturbingly often on exath spot where most western tanks have GPS. 

- regardless of target type they seem to still fire on that same left position, even T-14, and T-90

-  I did change wind conditions to see if that changes things, didn't seem to.

- I did try some small selection of different ammos beside base ones, didn't seem to have affect.

- On final version I changed some platoons closer.. and observed pattern of shots landing more wider than marked area on picture. 

- I did testing on mission editor only

 

Heres scenario I used for testing,  open on mission editor, start it, switch to red side to observe with free camera to see this

- choose what platoons have to hold fire (on last version all 3 are on open fire) 

 

 

 

 

Where does Ai shoot test.sce

[Jartsev]

Need to investigate this before making any conclusions...

[Captain_Colossus]

On 2/12/2022 at 12:33 AM, Lumituisku said:

 something like 8 direct hits to GPS from like 16 shots from enemy.. 

 

 it might be that the computer deliberately targets the GPS; you really get appreciation for this in instant action, the computer seems to be targeting the GPS and is uncanny about this; the GPS us usually one of the first components knocked out with very accurate shots from computer units even on the move

[Ssnake]

No. The AI gunners know nothing about the primary sight. Even if they did, the ammunition dispersion would prevent targeting the primary sight except for, maybe, automatic small caliber fire at short ranges.

Primary sights simply tend to be comparatively fragile (as all optical instruments tend to be), exposed (it's a functional requirement), and typically facing the enemy. Most tanks have ballistic shield doors that you can close. Some of these doors have a tiny hole to allow you, at least during day time, to still use the sight for observation and aiming - just not the thermal sight or the laser.

[Captain_Colossus]

well, i don't say what i did just simply without observing something going on- i noticed this often enough that it does not seem to be some kind of user bias. i just ran instant action twice, i held fire and let enemy units shoot. the first trial- first shot, first hit from the AI with gun fired ATGM (which seem especially prone to hit the GPS), direct hit on the GPS.

 

I immediately quit and reset instant action- again you see shots aimed at the GPS until finally hit. Even the shots that missed seemed to be aimed specifically at that location until the final shot the result was achieved- sometimes the turret orientation might be the difference insofar as spoiling the gunner's aim, but in all cases, all shots were seemingly targeting the same location, this includes both anti-tank missiles and sabot ammunition. because this behavior is rather consistent, i have done this previously with about 9 out of 9 attempts on the GPS, very much the same or similar results as down below, not to mention all the times i noticed this behavior without actually taking screenshots

 

 

 

 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Captain_Colossus

[Lumituisku]

No. AI doesn't target GPS. Also if you use T tanks on a mission you do not see this happening for 2 reasons.

 

1 - western enemies: tanks that do not have T- designation fire at the center of target 

2 - T- designated tanks still would fire on your "right" where this time commander is located to. 

 

Clearly i have to show some AAR and video footage of this so you all can understand what I have noticed. T- tanks fire on targets right side ( left of target  from their point of view) with such clear bias that if only turret is visible.. most shots land where western tanks have their GPS. 

 

 

 

 

[Captain_Colossus]

  ND

auppose you are right- i perceive the consistent damage to the GPS because of the shot preference to that location. that is- it is not the specific component but the general location- where the GPS is 50s

[Lumituisku]

Just now, Captain_Colossus said:

  ND

auppose you are right- i perceive the consistent damage to the GPS because of the shot preference to that location. that is- it is not the specific component but the general location- where the GPS is 50s

 

UUUUM...  

 

I have been wrong here.  I saw that T-tanks had bias because I wanted to.  But I didn't see that western tanks had bias too. 

I just did some testing with more targets and enemies and noticed that..

- Eastern tanks (T-designated ones)  t72, 80, 64, 90, 14 - Fire constantly to left side of target from their point of view  (right from targets)   regardgless if target is western on eastern

- Western tanks M1, Challenger, Leopards - Fire constantly from Slightly to domintantly to left side of target   regardles if target is western or eastern.      

 

- western Tanks with more accurate fire, with small dispersion, seem to stay closer to center with very mind bias to right..  while those with wider dispersion  seemed to have horribly strong bias to right (left side from target point of view) 

 

 

 

[Ssnake]

56 minutes ago, Lumituisku said:

1 - western enemies: tanks that do not have T- designation fire at the center of target 

2 - T- designated tanks still would fire on your "right" where this time commander is located to. 

a. It is correct that there seems to be a systematic error

b. It depends on the location of the AI gunner in the turret (to the left, or to the right of gun)

We will of course investigate and correct for this, if possible.

If confronted with enemy tanks that tend to shoot left, elevation errors in the projectile's trajectory can disproportionally often hit the primary sight, but not because it's being targeted with deliberation. I understand however how the result can still create the wrong impression.

[Lumituisku]

29 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

a. It is correct that there seems to be a systematic error

b. It depends on the location of the AI gunner in the turret (to the left, or to the right of gun)

 

Same conclusion I was just running to.  Thank you @Ssnake   👍

I was just about to do long videos and AAR footage of the matter. But now I see little need for that.  Thank you.   

 

I believe you cave me a clue about that some time ago when I created topic about friendly fire.  Where it came apparent that AI aims from the sight view. 

 

One thing that bugs me is that doesn't modern tanks. Like player gunned Leopard2 and M1 automatically correct this difference between where ones sight is located, on and point where one is suppose to hit on distances creater than.. what 400m?  

 

What would I find out if I would start doing this same test I have been doing as shooting myself?  Would I still observe clear bias to side where my gunner optics are located to in reference to gun?  Or is this AI exclusive feature currently? 

 

edit:

Wait what Gunner not the GPS???  Is that the reason why western tanks where gunner is basically between commanders legs  seem to fire lower than for example T-tanks?  😲

 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Lumituisku

[Ssnake]

12 hours ago, Lumituisku said:

Like player gunned Leopard2 and M1 automatically correct this difference between where ones sight is located, on and point where one is suppose to hit

Yes. That's why it is a bug.