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The unforgivable thing is ‘I am a Brit’ sorry about that chaps! No longer hanging in Colombia. Now in Mexico!

Engineering equipment? Earth mover? Hole diggers? Bigger bridges?...better defensive potions? Helos moving troops? Really hoping for a tactical element beyond walls or civil cars. Loving the new artwork, so happy! And the new vehicles mind blowing! That would be enough for me right now!

So just to recap, as im not sure I am keeping track, the new vehicles are thus far: 1. M1 2. M1A2 SEP 3. M113 FIST 4. M60A3 5. CR2 6. MAN Truck 7. Piranha IIIC 8. CIVIL Car (sudan, hatchback) 9. T-55 10. T-62 11. T-72B 12. T-72 (modern? as seen in the ITEC video) 13. Ural 4320 14. Ural Fuel 15. 16. 17. 18. 19. 20.

As of the 21st: Charlly2 T-72B (variant of earlier model) T-62 T-55 MII3AI (variant of earlier model) U432OT (variant of earlier model) M1A2 SEP (variant of earlier model) Eagle 5 w. Lemur. Possible: MAN truck Loving it

Merkava 4 looking pretty sweet too, but somehow M1A2 is just all-round tank!...like a tank is supposed to look! Maybe it just because that’s the one we see all the time doing what tanks are supposed to do?

Man don’t do that...had me freaking out for a little while, that would have been a game changer!!!

Worried about using troops and vehicles in towns with lots of walls and compounds. I have made compounds before in an Afghan scenario, used containers re-skinned as walls. Turned into a bit of a nightmare to be honest. Troops are to widely spaced and just get stuck, trapped in compounds not able to escape. Same for vehicles, even broke down into individual units it just bogs you down in constant recovery needs. Even have to bulldoze containers out of the way to get vehicles out. If the behavior of spirits and vehicles has not been improved, I feel a problem looming? Or that’s just urban warfare…an absolute cluster regardless! Perhaps you could have a kind of urban formation for troops, a close column formation or something? Making these future towns and cities will need some thought.

I was referring to been able to pick up troops with empty vehicles, or move with helos.

So far, we know it’s the: Charlly2 T-72B (variant of earlier model) T-55 MII3AI (variant of earlier model) U432OT (variant of earlier model) Most likely to include: Eagle 5 w. Lemur. MAN truck As we know these models already exist in some form, and perhaps we can expect more variants like the CV90 FO I think that would make more sense. 8 down, 12 to go?!?!?! Looking good so far, especially for scenario makers. Wondering if we are going to see any big tactical game changers? Perhaps new engineering equipment or aircraft? Walls for map building makes quite a change to things in some regards, the U432OT adds a welcome dimension. Was hoping for general purpose transport system, that would truly change the tactical play, next time? OMG, the amount of time I am about to spend map making is frightening…just hope one day I will get to play.

WHAT THE.....

Junior members only game! You big boys can just chuckle quietly in the background, thanks! i would have never guessed a troop carrying truck or another M113 however...mmm

This is crying out for ‘Guess the 20 vehicles’ competition, who can get the closest? But I had not realized just how difficult this turns out to be. Here is a ‘off the top of my head’ list just to get ya salivating!! 1) T-55 (check 15th) 2) T-62 3) ZSU-23-4 4) BMP3 5) M-60 6) Worrier 7) ASCOD 2 SV 8) Civil car 9) Civil truck 10) Stryker 11) M-109 12) Avenger 13) MRAPs 14) MI-17 15) AH-64 16) Patria AMVs 17) LAV III

I am hovering around this forum like a starved vulture….feed me! For the love of combined warfare…feed me!

Here is a map I am putting together to try shape an idea of the ground in the GOC. The DMZ Divs are currently deployed in a two up one back config, but I am really not sure how it would look in reality?

Chaps I’m trying to put details together on a Korean scenario, so I’m really interested in the 50 mile GOC area south of the DNZ. Cannot find any real indication of just how things might be organized. I have read, but cannot confirm, that the ROK works on 3 main defensive layers. If that’s the case does any one know if the regular units make up the first layer, kind of 17-18 Divs shoulder to shoulder, and the reserves the remaining layers? Don’t suppose anyone knows where the Corp boundaries might be drawn? If anyone could point me in the right direction most appreciated thanks.

Thanks guys, Yerr I was hoping for terrain maps to be honest, guess I’m just going to have to work on the height maps…god give me patience, strength and time!!!

Looking for maps for Korean scenarios, I was surprised when I could not find any to download. I guess everyone just used generic woody hilly maps? thanks

i have used them skind for walls of compounds in Afpak scenarios, beware AI hate confind spaces!

A lot of talk on what new stuff we would all like to see, from new environmental models like walls and cars, new addons, crewable Russian equipment and so on. Man, lets make use out of what we have first! I cannot even move a HMG team from one location to another!!! I have no vehicle or helo that can simply pick them up and move them, cannot even pick up soldiers, I got no mobility! Been able to move stuff around is a big deal on the battle field. That would make a big difference, adding depth over all. how this might be of training benefit im not sure, but it brings more realism, gives commanders options they would have in reality, gives a lot of flexibility. But its alright for me to say, I don’t know how much work that would be to implement, but im guessing a lot less than building addons…right?

...roger that my friend...understood!

Have just finished a big map for a costume scenario and had thought about how much targetable bridges would have changed the way the game and scenario would work. Building up grade HAS to take into account how many hours it takes to make a town let alone a city. It’s a mind numbing process and as much as I love the game, its killing me finding the motivation not to mention the time to put new maps together. I think I have talk before about the possibility of creating city or town blocks. That is a ready made 10 building, or something, block pre made that one could fill an area. Perhaps a European version and desert M.East. then we just need to fill in edges and gaps. A better approach might be the ability to copy –past a selected area of objects. So you can customize a relatively small set up in great detail then simply copy - past and adjust at will. Would make a huge difference, killing the inherent fear and dread of starting a new map making project. Destructible buildings WOW!!! Just WOW!!! For the gaming community this would be awesome, not sure what military users would see in it? But when looks at how urban warfare is front and center more than ever its clear SB could do with a little attention in this respect. SB had talked about adding detail like walls and civ vehicles, barbed wire and others but they never made it into the up grade. But how far off are they? was there work done on these objects? Are half finished projects sitting around on hold?

The ‘small, medium, large’ sounds good to me. My own personal account of IEDs was nothing less then a god like event. A culvert IED took out one of our sections on a mobile patrol in Northern Island. Striped an armored Landover down to its axel and tossed that remaining part over 100m into a field, and created a new lake where a road use to be. IEDs yes can be big! For the purpose of a set up like SB I think some thing ranging from a 155 shell to a truck bomb, with a 500lb bomb in between perhaps, would be suffice. Rather than a grenade size device, which im not sure would provide much in SB, how about a AP mine that could be used in minefields and set as traps. For training purposes, and IED with some kind of visual clue, perhaps disturbed surface or a few simple objects, to make the student think and look and pay attention. On this subject, my mines in SB have no sound when they detonate?

also: Thanks to Janne Kemppi jkemppi@raita.oulu.fi for the following TO&Es. Motor Rifle Brigade Commander Staff 2 Tank Battalions 31 T-80/T-72 MBTs 21 BMP-1/2 MICVs 18 2S17 122mm Tracked Howitzers 4 AT-5/6 ATGWs 4 2S6 AA Tanks 9 SA-16 SAMs 2 MTU Bridge Tank 1 IMR Engineering Tank 3 Motor Rifle Battalions 10 T-80/T-72 MBTs 48 BMP-1/2 MICVs 18 2S17 122mm Tracked Howitzers 4 2A45A 125mm AT Guns 4 AT-4 ATGWs 4 2S6 AA Tanks 9 SA-16 SAMs 1 MTU Bridge Tank 1 IMR Engineering Tank 1 Motorised Rifle Battalion 45 BTR-80 APCs 8 120mm Mortars 6 AT-5/6 ATGWs 6 AT-4 ATGWs 9 SA-16 SAMs 1 SPEZNAZ/GRU Diversionary Company 1 Traffic Control Company 1 Military Police Company 1 Reconnaissance Battalion 24 BMP-1/2 MICVs 6 BTR-80 APCs 12 BRDM Reconnaissance Vehicles 1 Anti Tank Battalion 12 2A45A 125mm AT Guns 12 AT-5/6 ATGWs 12 AT-13 ATGWs 1 Artillery Regiment 36 2S19 152mm Tracked Howitzers 12 BM21 122mm Rocker Artillery 1 Air Defence Battalion 12 2S6 AA Tanks 12 SA-15 SAMs 1 Engineer Battalion 3 BTR-80 APCs 2 BRDM Reconnaissance Vehicles 6 PMM Amphibious Ferry 12 PTS Amphibious Ferry 12 TMM Bridge Truck 3 MTK Engineering Tank 9 GMZ Minelaying Tank 10 BAT Engineering Tank 6 MDK/BTM Fortification Machine 6 PZM Fortification Machine 1 Signal Reconnaissance Company 1 Signals Battalion 1 Supply Battalion 1 Medical Battalion 1 Transportation Battalion NOTE: Supply units have same strength as 1980's division thus ensuring extremely strong supply and making this unit capable of fighting extended periods in battlefield.

FOUND THIS ON THE NET! "This page details organizational changes undergone by Russian tank and motorized rifle battalions during the 1990s, in Command Decision format. It should be noted that the TO&Es below represent the ideal situation, which the Russian reality frequently fails to match. Budgetary shortfalls, chaotic downsizing and reorganization of the Ground Forces, equipment availability issues, and finally the exigencies of the war in Chechnya have all left their mark. Tank Battalion (Motor Rifle and Tank Regiment) 1 Battalion HQ, with 1 Command MBT 3 Tank Companies, each with: 1 Command MBT, 1 MBT Notes: 1. MBTs include various variants of T-72 and T-80. Battalions do not operate more than one tank type or variant. 2. Soviet-era 13-tank company organization used by tank battalions of motor rifle regiments has been abolished, and the 10-tank company organization described above has been standardized. Tank Battalion (Motor Rifle Brigade) 1 Battalion HQ, with 1 Command MBT 5 Tank Companies, each with: 1 Command MBT, 1 MBT Notes: 1. MBTs include various variants of T-72 and T-80. Battalions do not operate more than one tank type or variant. 2. Soviet-era 13-tank company organization used by tank battalions of motor rifle regiments has been abolished, and the 10-tank company organization described above has been standardized. Motor Rifle Battalion (BMP) 1 Battalion HQ, with 1 Command Stand, 1 BMP 3 Motor Rifle Companies, each with 1 Command Infantry Stand, 1 Infantry Stand, 2 BMPs 1 Mortar Battery, with 2 2B11/2S12 120mm mortars, 2 Gun Crews (ds), 2 GAZ-66 trucks 1 AGL Battery, with 1 AGS-17 stand, 1 BMP 1 SAM Platoon, with 1 SA-18 stand, 1 BMP Notes: 1. All infantry stands have integral RPG-7 AT weapons. Rearmament with RPG-29 is planned, but has been delayed by financial problems. 2. Plans in early 1990s called for the replacement of 2B11/2S12 mortars with 2S31 or 2S23 SP or 2B16 Nona-K towed 120mm gun-mortars. Nona-K prime movers would have been MT-LBs. Each battalion was also to receive a Reconnaissance Platoon, with 1 Patrol Stand, 1 BRM-1. These changes were not implemented. 3. Planned early 1990s MR company TO&E included an AT Platoon (1 AT-7 Metis ATGM stand, 1 BMP). This change was not implemented. 4. Some battalions have 82mm mortar batteries, as BTR battalions. Actual number of 120mm mortars is 8, organized in two 4-tube platoons. Motor Rifle Battalion (BTR, MT-LB) 1 Battalion HQ, with 1 Command Stand, 1 BTR-80 3 Motor Rifle Companies, each with 1 Command Infantry Stand, 1 Infantry Stand, 2 BTR-80 1 Mortar Battery, with 1 2B14 Podnos 82mm Mortar Stand, 1 2B9 Vasilyok 82mm automatic mortar, 1 Gun Crew (ds), 2 GAZ-66 trucks 1 AT Platoon, with: 1 AT-4 stand, 1 BTR-80 1 AGL Battery, with 1 AGS-17 stand, 1 BTR-80 Notes: 1. All infantry stands have integral RPG-7 AT weapons. Rearmament with RPG-29 is planned, but has been delayed by financial problems. 2. Command Infantry stands also have integral AT-7 Metis ATGMs. 3. Some BTR battalions have BMP battalion-type mortar batteries, or replace the Vasilyoks with Podnos mortars. Actual number of mortars in the battery is 3 Vasilyok and 6 Podnos mortars, with each weapon system grouped in a single platoon. 4. Early 1990s TO&E provided for a Recon Platoon at battalion level, with 1 Recon Stand, 1 BTR-80. This change was not widely implemented and was later dropped. 5. AT Platoon also has 1 (one) SPG-9, not enough to warrant a stand. Mike J. ===== The J-8 Shop Wargame Rules and Variants http://www.geocities.com/pmj6/"

Yee rim thinking they pushed the character development a little to far there…Christ I hope!